Yeah. All tired and stressed.
So so busy. I can't explain it.
But,
yeah,
I mean,
it is what it is. It's, getting it done.
Poor, tired, and stressed. That about sums up how you
feel when setting up a cafe.
This is episode 2 of the series following Paul Ross
as he prepares to open the doors of special guest
coffee in Marylebone, London.
In this episode, we hear about the pre construction
phase, which can also be referred to as the phase
where dreams go to die. As your projected costs go
up and your budget is exceeded, the dreams need to
meet reality. So Paul, however, is quintessentially British in his
approach to this situation.
He is stoic, seemingly calm, and staying positive.
And in our post interview chat, Tibor and I reflected
on the times when we were setting up or renovating
our different cafes. And while we remember it was tough,
we also remember it being a bit of fun. So,
Tibor, reflecting back, how was your experience setting up Espresso
Embassy?
Andrew, you're the 1 who opened dozens of shops,
if I remember correctly.
But, yeah, Espresso Embassy opened in 20 12, and we
had,
we made the shop a bit larger in 20 19.
So it was 2,
basically 2 builds.
Both times I felt quite incompetent about building and electricity
and water
and all these things. So
where my escape was to find architects
and,
shopfitters who I could kind of truly build a friendship
with. And,
and somehow I managed to do that.
So I really had to find people who I could
trust
when they tell me that something needs to be redone,
or we need to spend some more money on something
that I could really trust,
that is necessary.
So for me, it was this, kind of tight connection,
that
saved me.
But, certainly,
the the more fresh memories, 2019,
when we already had the shop open,
And then, for the renovation, we had to close it
for about 20 days.
But I did have around 10 staff then,
who had to be paid, and I obviously didn't want
to let them go and then get new people. That
was out of the question.
So the time pressure on that 1 was really,
really,
painful and demands. And,
yeah, it's,
it's an experience.
And, and that's why it's think, very interesting to to
hear,
Paul's both experience and pain in the current moment in
this episode.
And
in Paul's circumstance, he's, on a very steep learning curve
when it comes to understanding the property market and,
managing contractors
and everything else as you will hear in this episode.
So welcome to the Coffee Knowledge Hub podcast. Thanks for
listening again, and over to Paul.
The the stage I'm at now is the, like, reconstructions.
I I personally find it
most difficult
because it's the in between. People say, oh, what's your
what's your MEP plan? What's your CDM?
All these and I was like, I don't know. What
is it? It's like, what?
Where where's the the the data cable? And I'm like,
I
don't know.
All these things that come up.
But then, also, whenever you pick up the phone for
someone, the minimum cost is a thousand pounds to get
anyone out to do anything. And
so so
the the challenge is how do you manage that process
and do the right things and
prevent fire and prevent
and make sure people are safe in the space whilst
also doing it, budget that is both economical and within
your own budget. And,
well, you know, that's is way over budget already
Right. Before before I've even begun.
But, yeah, it's it's it's just
the timings is 1 thing. The finances is this tricky
balance. But then also in October last year, there's more
regulations coming to the UK.
Yep. And previously,
yeah, more regulation has come into the UK. And previously,
it was not unregulated,
but,
I'd
this is well, me talking as a layman
rather than an expert in this. Basically, now
you need people responsible for the designs, legally responsible.
So before the designer could be a designer and, you
know, go in and say this would be great, blah
blah blah. But now it's more highly regulated, and now
you become
responsible for those designs for, I think, 6 years.
And so, essentially, like, if you built it's unsafe or
whatever.
So now they have a role called principal designer,
and that's
basically
more on top of the either a layer above the
designer that you use or or someone in the construction
team, etcetera,
takes this role,
which basically means more money. Right? So because they
now have to have insurances and etcetera etcetera. Especially,
it's not their design and they need to look through
all the packs and then things like this.
Yeah. On top of that, I think there's there's more
on the construction side as well of this principle. I
think there's a principle sign and principle construct constructor.
And, basically, they they're the people that work together to
make that done. There's building control.
There's fire safety.
There's and then there's, like, extraction and ventilation
MEP.
And so
combined,
the the MEP is due to be something like,
30, 40, 50 percent of the budget.
So you don't even see it.
What's MEP?
I think it sounds like mechanical,
electrical,
and I'm actually not sure what the p is. Plumbing,
maybe? Okay. I think it's mechanical and engineering
plan, maybe, or mechanical
Yeah. Maybe maybe p is plan. That makes more sense.
Yeah. Yeah. It's the so it's a machinery
part of the architecture. Oh, it's just the, like, air
con.
Yeah.
It's the ducting. Yeah. And because it's all in the
ceiling, you need, like, you know, not even you're not
allowed ladders. You need scaffolding, and
you need to connect to the landlord's
services.
And they have a designated
contractor, so you need to pay that contractor who has
a monopoly so they can charge what they want,
with with well, I guess within reason, but still,
you're you're within reason and they're within reason might be
different.
And, yeah, everything just comes
thick and fast. And and you just don't understand if
you need it or not.
Yeah.
When we, opened up our shop in New York, because
we've done, obviously, a bunch of shops, Taylor Street,
and
been heavily involved in the process with Harris and all,
but New York was a different beast.
And, New York has a whole series of regulations
and
licensing,
and
you
and we just discovered that
paying a project manager to do that
was,
a huge if if we had a we we did
pay a project manager, but it wasn't very good, but
they weren't very good. And so,
we ended up paying a lot more in terms of
loss of time with our rent free period,
in terms of, delays in opening and delays in the
construction process because we didn't have the licenses
set up in the way that we could then sort
of tick off tick off each license, which would allow
the next stage of development to happen.
So it's like it's kinda like a domino's effect, where
if you don't get the right domino in the right
place at the right time,
then the next domino doesn't fall. And, so we yeah.
The the moral of that story was, a good project
manager is is worth their weight, in gold.
So Yeah. And I I I came to the same
conclusion, and and I sort of invested in that because
my my belief in the business is leave experts to
the experts,
and
I'm just not an expert in the
grit of
concrete or, you know, like,
all these terms that I I want us stucco finish.
Don't know what that is.
I have to Google it.
And so that's me in meetings just googling all these
terms I don't know. But
yeah. The because the reality is
you're you're ultimately
managing this pot of cash, and it has to work.
And I said to my I said to the builder
the other day I said,
also the pre construction manager, and I said to him,
it doesn't he's like, this is gonna be the this
is how much it's gonna cost. That's like, it doesn't
matter
if it's because if it goes over this pot of
cash, no one's getting paid. Like, that is the amount
is there to get people paid. So you pay us
more than that, but ultimately, that means we can't do
it. And I don't want to go into something knowing
that you can't get paid at the end. And and,
presumably, you don't want to either. So
I was just like, well, this is the pot of
cash. It's not where it's not whether I believe it's
worth it or not. That what you're saying is we
have to make a solution where that
reaches that number.
Yeah.
And and then I think they were like, okay. Well,
let's get the number first. Let's finalize it. See see
what we can do. And then there's ways and means
of
working with that, whether it's payment terms or if you
can find some more cash or you can save some
money on materials.
But I was just like, yeah. Like,
no. They I don't wanna put in any other way
other than this is the pot of cash. That is
it.
And cash I can't explain,
any any simpler. And I think they understood too. Right?
It's just
it's just hard to get things done.
But yeah. So that's the challenge at the moment. It's
getting everyone,
you know,
I don't know what the phrase is. Something like on
the same ship, you know, going in the same direction.
Yeah.
We we will get there and it will be fine,
but
like I go in full circle to where we book
on this conversation, it means it's tiring, it's stressful, and
I have no money.
And that is that is how it's gonna be because
we're making such a capital upfront investment
in something that I'm so confident in. And and as
you say, people will see the shiny thing at the
end.
And I was talking to 1 of my friends in
coffee, a couple of days ago, and he was like,
are you gonna release the numbers?
Because
I I
share, his name's Josh Josh Talo.
I share with him the numbers and, like, what I'm
going through because he understands. He's built several or helped
build several businesses and is a green buyer.
And he said, are you gonna release the numbers? Because
I think people need to see the reality of what's
what happens.
And so I'm contemplating it, but at the same time,
there is a,
you know, people
wider view of it is
money complicates things and, it it changes people's perceptions of
something.
So maybe, maybe not. But the reality is it's expensive,
and and people don't necessarily see that. And when you
go in and say, okay. Like, like, people make 80
percent on a cup of coffee.
Yeah. 1, you've got to sell hundreds of them.
And 2,
you know, that stainless steel chair you're sitting on cost
x amount. That's another 200 coffees that's, you know,
yeah. It's, by the way, it's so expensive. I don't
I can't
because you have to you have to buy a lot
of them,
and it's a craft to build a chair, but it's
so it just adds up so much.
Yeah. Yeah.
So
I think what you did with the construction team was
really
valuable though because you essentially said there is a budget.
We're not going over that budget because that budget is
the pot of cash. And that the reason that's so
effective is because
they're they're,
on the 1 hand, incentivized
to
earn more money, which means going over a budget.
But if you're very clear with them and say,
that actually, if you go over budget, you're not getting
paid,
then suddenly
your interests and their interests are very well aligned. So
that's, that's that's an effective way to to to talk
to people, I think, about,
about managing a project and
to, to ensure that everyone
has the end goal in mind, which is delivering the
shop on the on the budget that has been outlined.
And, if they go over it, then
they're gonna have to deal with the repercussions of that
themselves.
Yeah. The the the only fear there is a risk
in inherent risk in that, though. And my only fear
there is people cut corners in order to speed up
or reduce quality in order to hit the budget. And
if we've agreed on that change,
fine.
But I can accept that. However,
if
something, you know, 1 day, I'm not there or the
contractor's not there and someone does something that they maybe
should've done or they're cutting a corner or they're just,
rushing for some reason, not necessarily maliciously, just in the
process,
and it does cause a fire 1 day, 2 years
later or something,
then
that is my that is my fear of that.
And,
interestingly, I read a book once about a guy who
was building care homes,
and he said, you know, if you see a cost
saving measure,
we'll share the difference with you by half. So we'll
say 50 percent, you say 50 percent, or you get
50 percent back. And it resulted in care homes that
were rushed. They were,
you know,
or well, or they they 1 of the goals was
to not rush to cut costs,
and the resulting
element
is
it it cost less, which is great business, but then
also
I don't know what the result of that is.
But, also,
I think the other interesting thing is
that we've been documenting the process.
So,
with 1 of my friends, Massimo,
we've gone out to Colombia and Panama since in fact,
since we last spoke to you
and,
documented the coffee buying process,
and and cost
coffee buying, but also coffee produce production.
As we were on farms meeting producers
and their families and cupping coffees together. We bought a
few lots, etcetera, etcetera.
Followed that process. We're then next week flying out
to the roastery.
When I say flying out, it's in an island. It's
not it's not
and so,
we have to fly there. And we're gonna film the
roasting process,
and then we're gonna film the,
like, packaging and material process and the machine build, and
then finally, the build out. So we went at the
weekend to to take some photos and take some videos
of us taping up where everything's gonna go on the
floor. And so
I think that being in the high end of specialty,
which is already a premiumization of a commodity product,
intrigues
not only people within our industry, but people outside of
it. And,
therefore, I'm lucky and fortunate to have people who work
with me who want to be in a premium
bracket
and have examples of premium work. And therefore,
if we are able to share their content, you know,
credit them where it's due, then there's more value in
it beyond just money.
Yeah.
And 1, that works on alignment,
but also 2, that helps with negotiation, and there's other
things you can offer beyond
pure cash.
Yep. Yep. So you're you're effectively saying that you're
for the construction team and for the other people involved,
there's a marketing
benefit to
them? Yeah. I guess it is there's 1 of of
portfolio.
And, well, ultimately, they get paid, obviously.
But then,
there's portfolio,
but then also, you know,
I'm I'm happy to credit where credit's due. As I
said, I believe in expertise
and,
you know, they they get credited on that
marketing
that we do for the shop opening.
Yeah.
And that that is also combined with,
the marketing
that the landlord is doing for the unit as well.
Yeah.
That's what they're company.
Yeah. So talk us through the the
timeline or the all the different pieces that are involved
in shopping because
there's architects, there's designs, there's plumbing, there's electrics, there's mechanical
engineering, there's,
you know, the the the actual shop fit.
There's the signage at the front. You know, tell us
tell us how you've managed all I will do my
best,
but,
also,
it's a very layman's perspective. I will heavily caveat this.
So I first viewed the unit
last January, I expected 15 months ago.
And
I think we had a designer on board quickly after
that.
I had a property agent looking for properties
who helped me with the lease and directing me and
advising me.
And they just started their own business, so they wanted
I probably, to be honest, they're probably so busy doing
other things now that I would probably not go looking
in the same in the same way.
Mhmm. That's fair enough.
I was looking for the smallest shop, basically, that they
look for.
And so we had that, then the designer came on
board.
Then when you get close to signing the lease or
at least within your foot in the door, you then
have to submit
potential plans or mood boards or what they call a
landlord pack of
what their site is gonna look like. Because in
I'm sure this is not the only case, but in
London,
the demand is so high
rather than if there's a price for rent that you
pay, you then have to pitch the landlords.
So you need to go in with the the pretty
much a shop designer, be like, this is what it's
gonna look like.
We think we should go in and not
x other
business.
So that happens. Then we go into the legal stage,
And the legal stage can take, well,
however long it takes. I think it was a hundred
and 70 page document,
which Woah.
Yeah. Exactly.
And it's it's full of jargon as well. Right? Like,
refer to this point on,
etcetera etcetera.
It include I might have told you this last time,
but it includes,
clause
on there's a break clause after 5 years.
If you can't agree with the landlord how much the
rent should go up because it's upward only, then it
goes to arbitration
at the chartered surveyors,
And they appoint a,
like a judge, a chartered surveyor that's a judge, basically.
And then during that process,
it includes
the the least includes if that judge dies,
what happens?
And I was like, this this is why it's a
hundred and 70 pages.
So,
yeah, we we then,
do the legals. And to be honest, the legals took
a long, long time.
And then
at that point,
you can start getting close. You paid the deposit to
the solicitor
because the solicitor then releases deposit to the landlord once
it's been
signed.
But in the meantime, you then start doing more bespoke
designs for that space. Before they were more generic, but
now they're more bespoke.
Then you,
well, then we got an, like, a couple of indicative
quotes of what that would cost, and then we redesigned,
for that.
And then
at this point, we're closed again,
but we've signed now because
well, we had to oh, there was a there was
a couple of snacking issues with the unit because it's
a brand new unit.
So couple of things
need to be done.
And then,
we have we signed,
and then the designs need to be finalized,
given out to contractors to tender.
They then submit their bids.
The designers then
value engineer with a couple of or contractor.
Sorry.
Once the
before the bidding process, you have to get building control
involved in the designs because it needs to make sure
it's gonna be signed off.
Once they're
happy, then you can go ahead
and do the
m MEP plans and and things like this because,
like you said, how big is the void in the
wall? For the international listeners, MEP is mechanical
Mechanical engineering. Yeah. Mechanical and engineering. And then the void
in the wall, like you said earlier, Tibor, like, do
you put, you can't put electrical
and water together, so you need a in fact, you
need a tube, how big that tube is, and so
you have to get all these things done. Then it
goes out to contractors, then you value engineer,
which is kind of where we're at now, and then
you build. So the build is actually only What is
value engineering?
Value engineering is so
the design
and the builder says it's gonna cost
x amount, and you say I need to reduce it
by 10 percent. And so they say, well, you know,
if we're a bit more efficient, we can reduce it
by 5 percent. And then the designer says, well, rather
than using
an expensive paint, we can use a mid range paint.
Then that saves 5 percent. And so you can kind
of engineer the end value
to be in your budget.
Sure.
Or, you know, the floor is gonna cost twice as
much as we expected
to change or something like this. But
majority of the layout, especially,
and the key parts that they can get on with
are decided at that point.
And then once it's value engineered, you pay your deposits,
and
the build is actually only over 3 to 4 weeks.
So whatever you see on-site, is a very small amount.
It's actually gonna be 1 eighteenth
of the time.
Yeah. 5 percent of the time is actually building.
Sure. The thing I always hope so.
The thing I was always shocked by is also the
cost of putting hoarding out the front.
Oh, yeah.
Just that just that that ugly, ugly piece of temporary
timber that that,
shelters the pedestrian from the, from the shop front Cost
of water. Yeah.
Yeah. Vinyls on the windows cost us fortune.
So as part of the regulations in October as well,
there's more regulations around site safety for construction workers.
And the,
and it's things like
access to,
WC facilities,
access to somewhere to eat your lunch,
Mhmm. You know, basic things that,
typically, you know, in years gone by, they'll just be,
like, go to the pub over the road or whatever.
Yeah. But now you need an actual plan,
and
access
for them,
because they're gonna be on-site 8 hours a day. So,
yeah,
it's,
it's a lot.
So how long has
how sorry. Just from start to finish, just to just
to end this segment, how long
did that has this whole process taken to get you
here today?
Yeah. Well, here today is 15 months.
We'll probably be open within 18 months of viewing it.
K.
And as as a,
parallel to this whole thing, you have to manage cash
flow,
finances
in terms of, you know, if you're in if you
take on debt, then there's interest to pay and there's
repayment periods. And if you're not open, you know, earning
income
whilst
simultaneously
managing that with travel
international travel.
So,
you know, taking calls when
in the middle of World of Coffee or whatever.
And,
interestingly, I actually transferred the deposit
for the
unit, the the site, whilst watching,
Coffee and Good Spirits in Taiwan.
Just you have to do those things. But also, yeah,
the cash flow of the other business, the other business
is growing and it's doing well, and we're super happy
about that. But at the same time, when a bill
comes in for 60 kilos of
high end coffee, it needs to be paid. So,
there's whilst also not knowing the end date of this
other project. And so,
it's it's been a challenge to balance by no means,
you know, it's it's good challenges and, you know, I'm
in a fortunate position to be able to cope with
those and have good people around me that advise me
and being able to,
to do it, essentially. Because without that, I would have
no no idea. Even even even
still
after
working in the industry, helping people open shops, designing shops,
it's still
it's still a whole new a whole new skill set.
Yeah.
Were there any biggest surprises,
any biggest, like,
expenses that you didn't
expect that came up? The mechanical engineering is just I
was gonna say through the roof, but it is quite
literally.
It's just,
yeah. It's it's honestly wild. I yeah.
And then sometime sometimes, there'll be quotes back that'll be
like,
I don't know. It's somewhere between, you know, 10 and
20000
pounds. And I was like, that's a big gap.
Like, that's that's not, you know, a double, firstly. And
also, it's a lot of money.
Okay?
How do we not know anywhere close? Because
I'm I'm more of a, you know if someone tells
me a number, fine. I we can make that work
or whatever, but if we make a choice whether yes
or no. But when it's so unknown Mhmm.
So I'll give you an example. We're building the bars
out of stainless steel,
and
the designer says to me,
well, it strongly
depends on the details. And I was like, well, yeah,
that makes sense. And then they say, oh
and then they go for the list of details. You
don't realize how many details you have to think about.
And then you think, okay. Do we want a curved
edge? Do we need obviously, stainless steel doesn't come in
big blocks. Right? It has to be wrapped, and it
has to be welded, and it has to be opt
out. And then how do we attach the hinges or
the drawers or the,
like, is there,
you know,
electricity conductivity?
Is there water? Is there waste? Is there,
all these things
that are all
skills in themselves because you have an electrician, you have
a plumber, you have a contractor, you have building control
that all need to sign off on these things.
And
at the same time, someone's trying to build them.
So it's a bit of a Rubik's cube.
Yeah. There's so much detail to
each of those elements as well. I mean, the plumbing,
for example,
how do you get water
supplied to the counter?
And that's that's relatively easy because the
copper pipe is you know, you can run under the
floor. You can, you know, there are many ways to
get get water to it. But getting waste away from
an espresso machine and from a sink, If you don't,
you've gotta have a drain in the floor or you've
gotta go into the floor and you've gotta make sure
that it's gonna be gravity,
lead the whole way. So the water,
for those who don't know, water comes out of an
espresso machine as well as going into an espresso machine.
That water is waste coming out of the espresso machine,
and out of the milk,
milk printer and so on. But,
yeah, you've gotta that's gotta be led away into the,
the waste pipes
using gravity.
So you've gotta make sure that you've got that sort
of slight downward slope,
coming from the machine all the way to a point
where it can flow flow freely,
and that can be quite challenging.
Sometimes it involves pumps. Sometimes that, you know, you've gotta
dig into concrete in the floor, and,
it's just 1 of those things you don't think about.
And then there's obviously electrical supply. You've got to make
sure that the total supply of electricity
to a unit is enough to cover all of the
equipment you have there, So you know that your espresso
machine runs
on single phase or 3 phase. It draws a certain
amount of power, but then you put in a you
know, if you have an oven, you're doing food, and
it's got another power requirement. If you've got, you know,
other bits of electrical equipment, it all adds up, and
you gotta make sure that that is less
total draw than the supply coming in.
We actually have to flip the whole design at 1
point because of the waste. The waste is in a
different place than we expected, and it meant the whole
design had to be flipped. So there was the right
angle towards the waste part of it. Yeah.
In terms of so talking of things you didn't expect,
so when you take the unit and start constructing,
you require
or the contractor
has asked for a,
I think it's called, like, a pipe survey
or something. And so, basically,
before they start, they need proof or they need to
ensure
that the
waste system or the pipe system
is been signed off as clear. Because if there's a
problem
post construction,
they don't get
blamed for it or wrongly,
yeah,
like, there there's no problems later on in construction phase,
which yeah. It makes sense.
Everyone's then happy, but I didn't know that was a
thing.
I I have 1 memory that comes here,
when we've expanded my my shop, my only shop,
is,
I I really think we did a lot of good
things with the bar, and
it was expanded, and the space was better. And there
was, like, 3 picture rings. There's, like, good, nice stuff.
But we opened,
and half the staff was so pissed off because there
were the we didn't put enough bins,
like trash
opportunities,
which is super important. Right? You're working,
and you always wanna make sure that you don't need
to make an extra step even
to throw something out.
So that really,
got some extra attention, and then we we made another
hole in a bar and put another bin in there.
It was fine.
But, it has so many details.
Well, this is this is 1 of the downsides of
stainless steel, actually.
Yeah.
Is there is no cutting. There is no cutting on
the bar. And so
they left work
work properly cutting anyway. And so
they're just like, well,
this is gonna be it. Make sure it's right.
Okay.
Put some extra holes in.
Yeah. But then you don't want to shut all of
them. Right? So,
yeah, you don't want a holes above plug sockets and
etcetera, etcetera.
And,
yeah.
I make this out I make this sound like such
a arduous task, and it is difficult. But, obviously,
you turn around and say, like, we're in a great
position if these are the problems of our lives. You
know? We're we're doing things that are interesting that
are in an industry we love. And, ultimately, the end
goal will be walking to a coffee shop where people
drinking amazing coffee. And Yeah. That's why that's why I
keep telling myself and
yeah.
It's it's it's
it's my it's funny enough. My partner was,
filming me, yesterday
doing the subscription labels.
And And I was like, what what are you doing?
And she said,
oh, well, you'll you'll turn around in, like, you know,
5 years time and be like, this is what we
had to do. You know?
When
when the subscriptions came in, the labels printed, and there
you are at 10 o'clock night print the labels ready
for the next day. And that's what I'm gonna do
today. And so
I was just like, yeah. I guess that is
the thing, but
also
also stop filming.
But, yeah, it's like so I think, like,
these challenges,
I yeah. Part of me just turned around and be
like,
you just got a lot some of them you just
gotta laugh at. Some peep some you just gotta pop
with.
Others, you can, you know, you can sort of argue
back or, like, compromise with. But, ultimately, like,
it needs to get done,
which which is the conclusion of many of the conversations
I'm having at the moment. It's just that they need
to get done.
And,
yeah, I don't know if it's a universal saying, but
we have a saying that there's plenty plenty of ways
to skin a cat.
Yeah. More than more than 1 way to skin a
cat.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what that means, but I
like I don't know where that's come from, but that's
yeah.
It's definitely,
definitely an English expression.
So
I think
you were
you alluded to
it before, Tibor. We were talking about data cables at
some stage in this conversation, and you were sort of
alluding to
future proofing
a shop.
And so that I think that is 1 of the
hardest things with
a
with with cafe design, with starting up a new business.
Because
with every cafe you open up, you're
envisaging
the flow of
a customer from coming from the outside and that that
first experience of the shop when they see that sign
across the road, they know where they're going. You know,
they know how to open the door. They know, you
know, where go go into the cafe. They know where
to order from. They know where to
sit down.
They,
know what products are available,
to order.
They can identify
where the toilet is. They can identify what kind of
seating they want. You know, they can eyeball a PowerPoint.
You know, you've got this whole customer experience you're trying
to imagine,
and,
you also have to think about how your
service proposition,
your product offer
will fit into
that whole,
physical space,
and will be
understandable to customers who are either not familiar
with your service offer and your product,
but will become familiar with it in an in a
intuitive way,
as well as, just
the,
you know,
trying to imagine
a world where, you know, maybe regulation changes. Maybe you
have a different product on on the menu or you
need to install some new equipment. So all of these
things are,
for me, the the the thing that worries me the
most when I'm when I'm setting up a cafe. Have
you,
given much thought to all these things? Have you have
you thought through,
that customer experience, the kind of journeys the customers are
gonna be having when they come into the cafe?
Yeah. So the
it's a big it's a big part of what I
think about, to be honest. It's it's it's less about
the details,
more
about
the fundamentals
of a cafe experience.
And for me, you wanna feel comfortable.
You want what
they sell,
presumably,
and
and you want to go back.
Right? It's it's very simple, like,
but then
you that's the top level, and then you work back
into the details. Right? So you
you say about people know how to open a door.
Well, I actually disagree that I disagree, and I think
doors are designed badly
for I had this design I had this conversation with
my designer.
My fundamental belief is push doors should have a panel.
All doors should have a handle.
Then people know how to use them. So too many
calls have handles both sides, and people don't know how
to use them. Mhmm. Not because they're not smart,
but because
it's not clear. And then and then you get into
a position where you have to put push and pull
when someone has to read something when they're in a
rush and, you know, doing other things or not looking
or whatever. And then
so it's things like that, the details that, yeah,
you can simplify it by just having panels on 1
side and panels on the other. And then 1 knows
universally
how to use that.
So I do think that's that's an interesting problem. But
also,
for me, like, it's a very experienced lead because
of the high end nature of the coffee that we
sell. And
so it's not your outside of train station espresso bar.
You can get takeaway, and there's there's an allowance for
that.
However,
if you want to sit down and try 1 of
the rarest, most expensive coffees in the world, you also
can do that.
And so
that's a different proposition.
And,
you know, I think that if I was to put
a number on it, say, you need if you're gonna
spend 30 pounds on a coffee, you need a 30
pound coffee experience.
And that includes the coffee, obviously,
but also the service,
the environment,
the cup you drink out of.
So we work with the ceramicist to do the cups,
and,
we import the
Glass server
and to because it's the best Glass server I find.
And all these things that are detailed that support the
fundamental of
you get the experience that you wanted in the place
that you wanted it, and it's comfortable
and it's delicious.
And so when we talk about future proofing and, you
know, future trends or,
data cables and things like that, as long as you
stick to those fundamentals,
I think you're in a good place. Like, that's business
fundamentals, but also your business ethics and oh, sorry. Your
business,
like mission.
Then
the dates of the cable, yes and no. Like, you
know, people people still go into your shop. I've been
there. It's packed. The data cable was annoying, probably.
But, ultimately,
you know,
with everything else going on and the level of execution
you do,
it's probably not that detrimental.
And so
my my view on this is, like, some of the
most delicious in the delicious food in the world is
street food. Right? Like,
and
people can sit on
plastic stools and have the best time.
So it's so it but that's just because the fundamentals
are there. You know? It's delicious food at the right
price and the right environment is what you expect, and
you get it every single time
at that same high level. And so
I I just I just think that's such an important
thing to stick to, and
maybe 1 day, I'll I'll I'll get lost in all
the the madness
and listen to this conversation again and,
remind myself of that.
Yeah. I'm glad we're, I'm glad we're documenting this. It'll
be
a it'll be a souvenir.
Just Just like the recording of you putting subscription putting
out subscription labels at 10 PM.
Yeah. Do you know what I said? I like, I
there's part of me that wants to look back at
things like this and be like,
oh, how naive you were. Like,
how rusty you are. Because you might end up doing
the exact same thing in 5 minutes. Exactly.
Exactly. I'm still doing this.
It it, like, difficult, though. Like, the advice you give
your friends that you never take yourself. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
The the other interesting thing that's has come up recently
about this is
in my
from the the wholesale business,
it's
relatively,
driven by demand. So you
if if you get an order, you roast the order,
you sell it. It's very simple.
In in some ways, it's very simple.
Then but in cafes,
you have this huge expense which you have to build.
Mhmm. And then you hope people turn up.
Yeah. And so that is 1 of the major stress
points. It's, you know, like, as a kid inviting everyone
to your birthday. Right? And,
it's it's the major stress point because
this could all be redundant if you've chosen the wrong
wrong location or you've you've signed the wrong lease.
If you sign the wrong lease, you may never make
money.
Mhmm.
That's a 10 year commitment.
Yeah.
With a 5 year break. Yeah.
I'm cool.
And the job is a bit
Yeah. So I think, you know, you talked about the
3 phases of the business, and you're in you're in
the construction phase, the the build out phase, and you
can only
control now the things that are in your power to
control. So,
that's what you have to focus on.
Yes. So, hopefully, next time I, speak to you, we're
we're building.
Yeah.
When's
the
So it's It's the nicest way.
Third of April today. When when are you planning the
build?
Well, so,
actually,
the,
build
is let me see when
the the build is due to start on the fifteenth
or the 20 second.
So 2
weeks. K.
Because
the week after that is,
the world of coffee
Mhmm.
Which
I'm coaching at now. And so,
it needs to start because that's another another trip that
needs to happen.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I can't I can't
start the build after that because then it'd just be
too late. And,
so we have a deadline now.
Very good.
I think. Yes.
We'll see. We'll see.
Well, thanks so much, Paul. This is,
it's been
a a great conversation, and,
you're obviously
in the
the height of stress around
shop fitting
shop fitting experience.
You're
learning a lot along the way.
Thank you for sharing these experiences with us. It's,
I feel
I feel the tension.
I do. That's quite quite,
stress relieving, actually, speaking to you both who have both
done it multiple times. Yeah. And,
I'm like, okay. It's not just me. Not just me.
Andrew Andrew may be a hundred times more than myself.
There's 1 nice thing as a as a parting word
for me is
some elements that you now build out, I think you
will be able to appreciate more than anyone else.
Like, when you know that some curve on the bar
has been set for a particular reason,
people who come to work there will just think that
that's there because it's how it should
should be, and that's what it looks. But you will
know. Yeah. But 1 day, you made the decision, because
you thought about it, that this would be good this
way. And, it might actually turn out to be good
that way.
Yeah. And and that's a very nice feeling.
I don't know. What's what's your favorite design feature in
the cafe?
Mine
or yours?
Yours.
Cool. Design feature.
So we have a the the big part of this
is we have a double bar. We have 2 bars,
1 espresso bar, 1 brew bar. I like that
the barista
obviously, coming from a barista background, I wanna amplify what
the roles of baristas and and their role as well
and showcase
everything we do, not just the coffee itself. And so
the bar is quite open.
You can watch what everyone does, Mhmm.
Which puts a certain amount of stress,
always certain amount of pressure, but equally,
if if you're a skilled craftsman, then it should be
celebrated.
And and we we try and pay based on that
as well. But, also,
it means that customers are more connected to the process,
not just the end result. And so you can sit
at the brew bar. We've actually got 2 separate brew
bars now.
And I like that feature because you can sit, you
can chat to the person, they can brew you a
cup of, you know, expensive coffee and talk you through
who the producer is,
and you can see everything that goes on.
So I like this feature just because
it is a showcase of what we do. It elevates
everyone in the in the
in the cafe and and the job role,
whilst also providing more value
beyond the cup.
Nice.
But, Thibaut, you mentioned about the bar details. Like, 1
of the things I always wanted to do
was because the bars
well, all all construction is wasteful to an extent.
You know, that's offcuts. There's, you know, hoardings. There's all
these things,
that ultimately just get thrown away or or, you know,
reallocate somewhere else. And so what we're gonna do is
when we cut out the sink on the stainless steel,
use that panel to create coasters and engage them with,
the address of the coffee shop. And so you know
that that special guest, Marlobone, 20 24.
And so that that comes from the bar.
And so either we use them or sell them or
collect them or whatever, it's a moment so of that
process.
And if we have other shops later on or whatever,
then we can do the same out
of whatever material we use for those. And I think
that's a nice thing for you, like, you know, a
connection to a space,
beyond just
going in water in a coffin.
Yeah.
Very good. Nice.
Yeah. Well, we'll we'll see. Hopefully, that comes off because
if not, I'm gonna look very silly in this
this podcast. Just say you sold them out. You know
what I mean? Yeah.
So they went to a private buyer at my parents.
Garage.
Yeah. Exactly.
There's a there's a lot of there's a lot of,
coffee relics there. That's for sure.
Mhmm. Great.
Well, let's end it there. Thank you so much.